Tales of Misadventure with Nicole Donnelly

AI and ChatGPT Can’t Replace Content Marketing

• Wendy Covey • Season 1 • Episode 7

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Are robots coming for your content marketing? It may seem like it as new AI tools keep hitting the internet every week and the calls for caution grow louder. On today’s episode, Wendy Covey, CEO of TREW Marketing, and Nicole wade into the AI discussion that is on everyone’s minds. Get their take on ChatGPT, generative AI, how entrepreneurs, engineers, manufacturers, and business owners can effectively use AI, and the future of content marketing. Wendy also shares her journey to entrepreneurship, the pain of saying no to potential clients, learning to trust TREW’s team, her marketing insights, and how a “freakishly large redfish” garnered a state record. It’s a new thought-provoking episode of Tales of Misadventure with Nicole you don’t want to miss. 

ABOUT WENDY COVEY

Wendy Covey is the CEO of TREW Marketing, a technical marketing leader, author of Content Marketing: Engineered, is one of The Wall Street Journal’s 10 Most Innovative Entrepreneurs in America, and she holds a Texas fishing record. Wendy has helped hundreds of engineering and technical companies become trusted advisors, grow sales pipelines, and increase market share through content marketing.

HIGHLIGHTS

  • 2:21 - Hear the fishing trip story that won Wendy a state, fishing record
  • 7:30 - The work from home pitch that failed but sparked an idea and birthed two entrepreneurs
  • 13:11 - Find out what pushed the TREW marketing founders to define their ideal client, taught them to say No, and changed the company forever
  • 20:46 - Collaboration is one of the best marketing practices
  • 23:45 - Building a healthy company culture that fits 
  • 31:16 - ChatGPT, generative AI, and the future of content marketing
  • 40:44 - Marketing wins and how Google thwarted years of marketing efforts

RESOURCES & LINKS

Looking to overcome marketing blunders and find inspiration from the experts who have been there?

Subscribe to Tales of Misadventure with Nicole Donnelly wherever you prefer to stream podcasts!

Get in touch with the team at Tales of Misadventure by visiting dmgdigital.io.

Don’t forget to enroll in our newsletter for more small business marketing tips and entrepreneurial inspiration! https://info.dmgdigital.io/welcome-to-dmg-digital

00;00;01;19 - 00;00;29;25
Julie Basello
Hey there. Thanks for joining us for Tales of Misadventure, a podcast all about business blunders on this podcast. Nicole Donnelly, founder of DMG Digital, talks to entrepreneurs and learns how they turn their lemons into lemonade. DMG Digital is a content marketing agency focused on helping manufacturers attract new buyers through digital self-serve. Nicole Donnelly is a fourth generation entrepreneur, a girl mom and an avid traveler.

00;00;30;05 - 00;00;34;24
Julie Basello
Now let's head into a Tale of Misadventure with your host, Nicole Donnelly.

00;00;36;11 - 00;00;49;19
Nicole Donnelly
Hello and welcome to Tales of Misadventure. I'm Nicole Donnelly, your host with DMG Digital. And I'm joined by Wendy Covey. She's the founder and president of TREW Marketing and I am so excited to have you on the show today. Wendy, welcome.

00;00;50;04 - 00;00;54;00
Wendy Covey
Thank you so much for having me. This is going to be a fun time. Can't wait.

00;00;54;11 - 00;01;14;07
Nicole Donnelly
Yes. And it is such an honor to have another female entrepreneur on the show. I just am so excited. I have so much respect and admiration for you and what you've built at TREW. I just look up to you as just a tremendous mentor. And I loved meeting you at the Industrial Marketing Summit last fall and you did such an amazing job there.

00;01;14;08 - 00;01;24;01
Nicole Donnelly
I learned so much from you. So I'm just so excited to just learn from all of your experience and nuggets of wisdom. And you've been the business owner now for, what, 15 years.

00;01;24;11 - 00;01;27;03
Wendy Covey
Or five years? Yeah, this is our anniversary.

00;01;27;18 - 00;01;52;13
Nicole Donnelly
Oh, my gosh. That's a big one. That is such a huge milestone. I think they say what, only 80% of businesses, not only, but like I said, something like only 20% of businesses make it past that first five years and you made it happen. So that is pretty remarkable. So I want to give our listeners just a quick overview of your your past experience.

00;01;52;14 - 00;02;09;17
Nicole Donnelly
So you are a CEO, a technical marketing leader, author of content marketing, engineered and one of the Wall Street Journal's ten most innovative entrepreneurs in America. That's amazing. Thank you. I'm so excited to learn about this. You hold a Texas fishing record. So there.

00;02;09;17 - 00;02;14;20
Wendy Covey
You go. I mean, you could have just started with that really?

00;02;14;29 - 00;02;21;16
Nicole Donnelly
Well, I'm super intrigued to learn more about that. So tell me more. Tell me more about that fishing record, first of all.

00;02;21;23 - 00;02;42;03
Wendy Covey
Well, okay. Any excuse to talk about fishing? I no, it's a funny story, I guess. I grew up in a family where my dad and my brother love to fish on on this lake that where my grandparents lived. And it was so boring. Like, if it didn't involve buoys or malls or something like that. I was not into it as a teenager.

00;02;42;18 - 00;03;06;29
Wendy Covey
But fast forward into my adulthood and my husband was big into fishing and he was like, No, no, no, you need to try saltwater fishing. And so we went out and and what's neat about fishing in in the bay is unlike lake fishing, you catch stuff all the time and you never know what you're going to get because there's all sorts of species of fish swimming around in the ocean.

00;03;07;10 - 00;03;28;18
Wendy Covey
And so I took to it. I enjoyed it. I love being outside and on the water. And anyway, it was maybe a year later, so very new fish, a woman. And I just lucked into this fish and it just took all my line and I thought for sure I had a dolphin or something big that was going out to sea.

00;03;28;18 - 00;03;52;20
Wendy Covey
But it turned out that it was a freakishly large redfish or the species red drum that everybody calls a redfish. And it took 45 minutes to get a man. And I didn't even have the right line, like strong enough line to do it. So I to be really patient. But I had a guide on the boat, you know, holding my shirt so I didn't fall into the water and got you to talk me through it.

00;03;52;20 - 00;03;54;29
Wendy Covey
And in next thing you know, I had a state record.

00;03;55;17 - 00;04;00;06
Nicole Donnelly
That's amazing. It's like Hemingway, old man in the sea. Like, kind of like battle.

00;04;00;15 - 00;04;12;04
Wendy Covey
It was quite a fight. And I was at the time, and I think maybe still the only woman to hold a record in the catch and release logs in Texas. So I was pretty proud of.

00;04;12;04 - 00;04;32;15
Nicole Donnelly
That, too. That's amazing. So not only are you this super amazing entrepreneur, a business owner or like, you know, just crushing it, helping all these engineering companies, you know, create awesome content marketing. Now you're all you also hold this fishing record and can like really massive redfish. Like, go figure. That's amazing. That's cool.

00;04;32;15 - 00;04;34;20
Wendy Covey
I'll have to have a hobby. Nicole Right now.

00;04;35;00 - 00;04;38;26
Nicole Donnelly
That's. So how often do you fish? Is it something that you do? Pretty regularly.

00;04;39;03 - 00;05;01;29
Wendy Covey
And I try to get away as often as I can. I, you know, partial to the warmer months of the year here in Texas. And but also I have a women's fishing team and we've been at it for 12 years and we do about three tournaments a year. So that's definitely on the books. And then in between, maybe I get some family fishing in time into it.

00;05;02;12 - 00;05;10;11
Nicole Donnelly
Very cool. Yeah. Well, what is something surprising that most people don't know about you besides that you love to fish.

00;05;10;12 - 00;05;12;29
Wendy Covey
Besides the fishing.

00;05;12;29 - 00;05;13;27
Nicole Donnelly
Besides that?

00;05;14;04 - 00;05;27;20
Wendy Covey
Well, the only people that know this, we're either at the industrial summit or they went to high school with me. And I think this is always a fun one, that I was the high school mascot. So we're always a big fuzzy tiger.

00;05;27;23 - 00;05;32;28
Nicole Donnelly
Yeah, that's amazing. Oh, my gosh. I got to see a picture of that.

00;05;33;02 - 00;05;54;06
Wendy Covey
You know where it sounds amazing and I thought it would be amazing. And it was a unique experience, but we at the time went had a wonderful sport sports team, not only football, but every sport. We we were at the top of the size for that class of championships. It was like foray at the time or whatever. It's a Texas thing.

00;05;54;28 - 00;06;12;24
Wendy Covey
But anyway the result was I was in this mascot, so much so through state football playoffs, we won the championship. Then it was, you know, basketball playoffs and volleyball playoffs. And I finally I started training with the cheerleaders. So I'm like, this is I'm sweaty and hot and over this.

00;06;13;25 - 00;06;21;14
Nicole Donnelly
But it was fun. How do you how do you get the job as the mascot? That's that's a that's interesting. You have to actually audition to be the mascot.

00;06;21;22 - 00;06;47;23
Wendy Covey
They were serious tryouts. And what cinched my I think what cinched it for me, you know, I was against two other people was at the time, do you remember the Energizer Bunny? And yeah, there were these commercials where it would interrupt things and like, come in. So it was a fake commercial. Well, I had a friend, bless her heart, dress up like a bunny and borrow one of those drums from the high school.

00;06;47;23 - 00;06;58;12
Wendy Covey
Like band dude. And she she interrupted my routine and came in and did that. And then I chased her off. And I think it was so unexpected. It was just a slam dunk.

00;06;58;12 - 00;07;17;28
Nicole Donnelly
Super clever, super creative. Thank you. You are already a marketer at seven. Exactly. I love it. That's amazing. Very cool. Let's shift gears a little bit. Let's talk about you know, you've been a business owner now for over four for 15 years. This is your 15 year anniversary. Yeah. When did you first know you wanted to own a business?

00;07;17;28 - 00;07;29;12
Nicole Donnelly
Is it something that you wanted from the time you were really young, or did it just kind of come to you organically? Like what led you to wake up one day and say, You know what, I want to start TREW Marketing. This is my thing.

00;07;30;05 - 00;07;58;01
Wendy Covey
I'm the opposite of you. Nicole When it comes to this, I had no aspirations to own my own business, wasn't even on my radar, however. So I worked at a large technology company called National Instruments, and a colleague of mine, Rebecca Geier, and I were close friends and we would go on on often jogging at lunch or have happy hour and just talk about our careers and what we wanted.

00;07;58;01 - 00;08;23;24
Wendy Covey
And so so we had some things percolating there, some conversations. And then separately I fell in love. And the person that is now my husband lived in at this time, this tiny town outside of Austin in about an hour's commute from National Instruments. And we really wanted to raise our family in this smaller environment, get out of the city.

00;08;24;13 - 00;08;47;13
Wendy Covey
And so I went to, you know, my leadership and pitched the idea of working from home either every day of the week or some days of the week. This is so fun. Looking back at this conversation, by the way. And I was told, no, no, no, we're not that's not okay. You need to be here every day. And and at this company at the time, it meant 7 a.m. to 6 p.m..

00;08;47;13 - 00;09;07;09
Wendy Covey
It was they were long hours in a leadership role and they said, but they will promote you and we see bright things for you. And I thought now this, you know, that's not a good option for me. That's I want to go door number three here and, and Rebecca was ready to make a change. And so anyway, these talks kept percolating.

00;09;07;09 - 00;09;29;20
Wendy Covey
And then separately we noticed that the partners of national instruments. So these are system integration companies taking any products and delivering them into manufacturing. And they hadn't a clue on how to do good marketing. They had horrific Web sites, you know, were spamming people if they were doing emails at all. I mean, it was just so clear that they needed help.

00;09;30;04 - 00;09;45;11
Wendy Covey
And so it was out of inspiration to help them in some personal motivation to, you know, to work remotely and in start my family life out in the country. That led us led me at least to starting to marketing with Rebecca.

00;09;45;27 - 00;09;50;23
Nicole Donnelly
Wow, that's amazing. So probably do you think you would have taken the leap if you didn't have Rebecca.

00;09;51;29 - 00;10;11;21
Wendy Covey
Huh? I do, because there was a moment where she said, Oh, I just I don't think I can do this. And and I said, okay, I'm doing it. I mean, like, I'm in either way. I really, really, really want you to do this with me. But I, you know, either way. And then she came around, and so that was a good litmus test.

00;10;12;15 - 00;10;27;15
Wendy Covey
Now, would it have taken me longer to leave and do this? I think so. I think the safety and camaraderie of and the share of risk with a partner was a huge help to to twist both.

00;10;27;29 - 00;10;32;20
Nicole Donnelly
I bet. What were those first years like for you? Tell me. Yeah.

00;10;32;26 - 00;10;47;16
Wendy Covey
So and we we did something interesting. So our very first client was from the United Way. And I know it sounds odd for a company that focuses on engineering, but it was Rebecca's network.

00;10;48;01 - 00;10;48;21
Nicole Donnelly
That's amazing.

00;10;48;26 - 00;11;13;03
Wendy Covey
It was through Rebecca's network. And so what we decided to do was to have me continue working at National Instruments and Moonlight as the operations person in the closet. Behind the scenes. She took a leave of absence and took this first client and then after that, one or two more and I handed her half my paycheck. And that's how we funded year one at TREW Marketing.

00;11;13;09 - 00;11;35;03
Wendy Covey
And then finally we had enough business to where I too could leave. And so, you know, we had already had some practice at roles and division of responsibilities by Jess here, Necessity of, Hey, Wendy, you're going to fund this through this keeping your day job. So so that's that's how it.

00;11;35;03 - 00;11;44;20
Nicole Donnelly
Started and gosh like to be able to take on the risk that you did, you know, and to deal with the uncertainty I think is so cool. Well, I love that.

00;11;45;06 - 00;12;08;25
Wendy Covey
You know, I have to give a little bit of credit here to both of our husbands, though. And I would say this was another hedge was we both had husbands with great jobs and were fully on board with us, you know, taking this leap, not making income for several years. And they were able to support us and and make this into a self-funded venture.

00;12;08;25 - 00;12;11;23
Wendy Covey
And that made it a little easier to do as well.

00;12;12;14 - 00;12;30;25
Nicole Donnelly
You know, I've same experience. I don't think I could have started this business without my husband. Not only the fact that he does like he works for Microsoft, he's got the nice stable job, no desire to ever like go off on his own, just super supportive of everything that I'm doing and just total cheerleader. Right. But you're absolutely right.

00;12;30;25 - 00;12;50;14
Nicole Donnelly
Like, I don't think I could do this if I didn't have that kind of like stability there on that side of things. So that's really a blessing. I think that's nice. Girl power. Very cool. So tell me a little bit about one of your biggest blunders. I'm sure there are many. I have them every day.

00;12;50;15 - 00;12;52;28
Wendy Covey
And don't we all? Absolutely.

00;12;53;00 - 00;13;02;03
Nicole Donnelly
I have to go like it's like, you know, but like, I would love to like, let's take a trip down memory lane and let's open up the storybook of Wendy.

00;13;02;03 - 00;13;04;08
Wendy Covey
This her mini chapters have wind.

00;13;04;08 - 00;13;11;20
Nicole Donnelly
Yeah, maybe chapter Wendy Fishing pickleball Little.

00;13;11;20 - 00;13;50;21
Wendy Covey
The biggest thing that was absolutely transformative for our business it's there's one story in it's very clear and it goes back to that united Way thing you're like wait, TREW Marketing. No way. And exactly so early on. So we started in 2008. So in 2009, if you go back in the history annuals, you'll recall was the start of the Great Recession when we had the real estate, you know, stuff, all the loans fall through the floor and all of that stuff happened and it was a pretty major economic catastrophe.

00;13;50;21 - 00;14;18;16
Wendy Covey
And so here we are, a fledgling business, think things are going well, have a really eclectic mix of client clients and then we have the headwinds of this economic, you know, stuff happening in the world that affected everyone. You know, it affected nonprofits, it affected technology, you name it. Everybody was touched by this. And so we to get really smart about our growth and where we were headed.

00;14;18;27 - 00;14;45;29
Wendy Covey
And so we asked ourselves, you know, who are next five clients going to be who who are we best served the best experienced in marketing for, you know, who can we best serve in most of our careers? In fact, all of our careers really had been spent marketing to engineers and technical audiences. That's what we knew. We knew the trade shows, we knew the publications we, you know, and having the ability to first beat a large corporation.

00;14;46;10 - 00;15;11;06
Wendy Covey
We touched so many industries and so we had this knowledge of I can talk wastewater, I can talk automotive test, I can talk manufacturing process automation. You know, just from those 12 years. It and I and so it became clear that we needed to narrow our focus. And so we did that. We declared it. It was really scary to say we're going to say no to Dell Children's Hospital.

00;15;11;06 - 00;15;35;20
Wendy Covey
And, you know, this teacher wanting to start an educational system that has lots of money, you know, and grants. And when just say no to all that and be true to our niche, we're going to rebrand not the name of the company, but certainly what we stand for. And it was because of that decision and that bravery and that led to that award that you talked about, the Wall Street Journal, Entrepreneurship and Award.

00;15;35;20 - 00;15;40;22
Wendy Covey
And it was simple. It was just saying no to grow and expanding.

00;15;41;21 - 00;16;01;11
Nicole Donnelly
And I think I think every business owner has to go through that period like the first when you first start a business, you just want to take whatever business that you can get, right? Like, I remember it, like, whatever, you know, I'll take on any client I can, but I feel like there is this natural progression of once you start to grow that you really do have to make that very conscious decision.

00;16;01;20 - 00;16;16;24
Nicole Donnelly
And it is a very pivotal point where it's painful to say no to the, you know, it's so painful, but people would be like, Oh, you're saying that never changes. It still don't do that. Yeah, but.

00;16;17;06 - 00;16;24;04
Wendy Covey
We are technology but for dog food and it's, you know, like no, Yeah. Anyway. Yeah. Nuts.

00;16;24;05 - 00;16;34;16
Nicole Donnelly
Yeah. So once we made that decision. Yeah. Like was it how long until it felt like. Yeah, like confirmation that you had made the right choice.

00;16;34;16 - 00;17;04;02
Wendy Covey
I mean the numbers and I can't quote exactly what the growth was, but it was so obvious. So, so obvious right away. Yeah. And we, and it built more momentum. Like there were people in our ecosystem that had always been there. But once we declared this, they started sending us leads, you know, and helping us to tap different different groups of people that needed our help outside of just this night ecosystem that we, you know, started with.

00;17;04;02 - 00;17;06;07
Wendy Covey
So that was pretty cool too.

00;17;07;15 - 00;17;35;04
Nicole Donnelly
I think, as a business owner too. Like there's just so many decisions that you have to make and, you know, like if you're trying to serve and learn and try to understand all these different types of businesses and different industries, and it's just like it's the mental capacity that you need to do that. Whereas if you really can just niche down on one and just get better and better and better, you're going to get so much more momentum and you're going to learn so much more quickly.

00;17;36;08 - 00;17;49;29
Nicole Donnelly
So I think that's that's really great advice for anybody out there. But almost it's almost like you do kind of have to go through that period of figuring out who you are and who you're serving first before you can make that pivot. How many times have you had to pivot in your business?

00;17;49;29 - 00;18;24;00
Wendy Covey
Oh, several times. Many times. So a lot of services pivoting. So back when we were working with the system integration companies of a certain size, we were like, We're your outsource marketing department, We do everything. And then it was very difficult to staff all of the different functions of marketing, right? So I mentioned trade shows earlier, like having the trade show person and having a PR person and his relationships with all of the publications, having people who can write really technical content and so on and so forth said Google.

00;18;24;11 - 00;18;48;28
Wendy Covey
You know, Google ad certified person, you know, search expert, the list goes on and on. And so as a growing agency with not you, we couldn't afford to staff all of those positions. So some was out of necessity and then some was out of what do we actually enjoy doing like every every new hire would be like in you're going to be Google AdWords certified and they'd be.

00;18;48;28 - 00;18;50;09
Nicole Donnelly
Like, not going to do that.

00;18;50;15 - 00;19;15;25
Wendy Covey
You're like, Oh, we got to find someone. It was So there are certain services that I think just we gravitated towards and things that we were just felt we were uniquely qualified for, that our target audience needed most, whereas other things felt a little more transactional, like we're never going to have a programmer on staff. There's wonderful, talented programmers we can bring in, but let's not start that.

00;19;16;06 - 00;19;19;27
Wendy Covey
But we had to figure that out. You know, a lot of starts and stops on that.

00;19;20;13 - 00;19;40;18
Nicole Donnelly
Yeah, a lot of soul searching. It's like that hedgehog concept from Jim Collins. Good to great. Then like I think of it as like the Venn diagram, like, what is it that you absolutely love to do, you know, overlapping with what is it that the market needs versus what are you the really the best at? Right. Sounds like you guys got just really clear about that and just went for it.

00;19;40;27 - 00;20;02;14
Nicole Donnelly
We said, Yeah, yeah, that's awesome. Well, cool. I think like owning a business I think requires so much. Just a tremendous amount of mental stamina and strength. So I'm super curious like, what do you do? How do you manage that? Because like, I feel like as a business owner, I'm constantly being challenged and I love being challenged, don't get me wrong.

00;20;02;14 - 00;20;18;09
Nicole Donnelly
Like, that's why I started. Like there were four reasons why I started a business. One was I wanted to use my God given talents to help other people. The second one was that I wanted to have the financial freedom and independence, and the third one was I wanted to be challenged and, you know, always feel like I'm doing harder things.

00;20;18;09 - 00;20;37;26
Nicole Donnelly
But like, you know, it's hard. Every day is hard, I feel like. And I just am like, I just want to get stronger. So I would love to hear from you who's been doing this for 15 years. Like, what do you do to man it? Like, what do you do to just that mental fitness of just that mindset of how do you, you know, make sure your mindset, your headspace is in the right place?

00;20;37;26 - 00;20;40;24
Nicole Donnelly
What do you do to manage that? What is what are your tips and hacks?

00;20;41;06 - 00;20;43;11
Wendy Covey
Yeah, okay, big question.

00;20;44;22 - 00;20;46;03
Nicole Donnelly
Well, well, first off.

00;20;46;13 - 00;21;24;08
Wendy Covey
Marketing keeps changing. Like if I look back to 15 years ago, holy cow, like we didn't even have a HubSpot 15 years ago, right? So and then now you know where you have a I generative API for content development. So a lot changes with marketing. And so when I had to give myself some grace that you can't be the expert at everything and you can know a little bit about a lot of things and go deep on some, but you need to surround yourself by people that are watching different balls and you know, you make yourself crazy if you try to be the expert.

00;21;24;14 - 00;21;49;28
Wendy Covey
It is not possible. It's not possible. So I take it very collaborative approach to my business and I want people to feel ownership and accountability of things. I am pretty hands off in my management approach. I'm more of a coach and less of a dictator, if you will. And so that, I feel is served me well because I can go and be like, okay, what is this GA4 thing?

00;21;49;28 - 00;22;16;28
Wendy Covey
Like someone needs to get up to speed. Oh, you already know. Great. Can you, can you explain this to me? Or let's record on the podcast or whatever. So having collaboration partners in that doesn't have to be in my team. You know, Paul, are is someone I've known for years and years and he's now, you know, the founder of the Marketing Institute and so and looking to others and just hearing what they have to say on things helps.

00;22;17;06 - 00;22;28;28
Wendy Covey
That's a big hack, you know, listening to these podcasts of different people while you're exercising and feeling stimulated. Boy, that's a big hack to me too, is using that time and being creative.

00;22;29;23 - 00;22;48;20
Nicole Donnelly
Yeah, I love what you said about just really trusting your team. I think that's so huge and just being really intentional about like letting them have ownership because that's I mean, that's clear. That's how you've been able to grow your business and everyone rises when you do that and it helps you too, because it's a big burden if you have to be responsible for all of that.

00;22;48;24 - 00;23;13;10
Wendy Covey
Yes, exactly. And it's yeah, it's not scalable and it's not smart. And any time I'm in a sales engagement with a prospective new client and they say, Oh no, well, you know, you wrote this book and to Mark Virginia, so we want you on the account. I'm like, No, you don't. You know, you want my you want my marketing strategist that has been doing this, that is in the trenches, knows what's working like.

00;23;13;10 - 00;23;25;12
Wendy Covey
No, you know, So that was a pretty freeing thing when I got to that point where I could recognize, you know, that that's I needed to step back in order to have everybody grow.

00;23;26;04 - 00;23;44;19
Nicole Donnelly
So true, freeing and also so humble, such humility, right to like, realize, recognize and accept. Like, you know, I really can't be everything to everyone and do everything. And that's okay, you know, that's all. Love that. Yeah. You're such an inspiration, Wendy. Oh, stop. Cool.

00;23;45;27 - 00;24;08;09
Wendy Covey
Thank you. I want to mention another hacker. Something that's really important is just taking time away. You know? And so I do that in two ways. So one is we instituted no meeting Fridays, so we're not at the four day workweek necessarily, but we're trying to avoid meetings and we're a virtual workplace. We always have been for 15 years.

00;24;08;09 - 00;24;28;23
Wendy Covey
But I what we do is require that 70% of time be during normal working hours, but that other 30% take it. When you want to take it, take it when you need to take it. So if you want to do four day work weeks, do that or if you want it, you know, meeting Fridays and make that your okay, let me screw my head back on, which is happened this week.

00;24;28;23 - 00;24;53;13
Wendy Covey
I feel whiplashed, you know, like let me let me do some deep dive writing or, you know, whether you're heavy thinker or by Friday, you're toast. You know, plan your week accordingly. So doing that and then also just just taking time to go fishing at the coast or, you know, doing whatever it is that that going into exercise, you know, whatever ground you in brings you back to center is really important.

00;24;53;13 - 00;25;11;02
Nicole Donnelly
My love that I've been trying No beating Fridays to. Yeah. Yes and I got to tell you some you know works for a while, but every once in a while there's a meeting that creeps in there. But the days and I have no meetings. It's just. It's so great. Yeah. Yeah. And I love that you give your team the flexibility.

00;25;11;13 - 00;25;31;25
Nicole Donnelly
It's so amazing. Like you were saying about your company before you started, wouldn't let you work remotely. And even then I was blessed to work for a company that from the time I started working there in 2005, they said, We'll let you work from home one day a week. So I feel like most of my career I've been like lucky enough to be in a situation where the employers was progressive enough to see that.

00;25;31;25 - 00;25;38;24
Nicole Donnelly
So I think it's awesome that you've created that kind of environment for your team, and I think it's to become even more important in the years ahead.

00;25;39;00 - 00;25;58;18
Wendy Covey
So I know everyone caught up with us. Nicole I was I don't know what to think about that because it used to be a huge recruiting advantage for you marketing because we figured it out, right? We're we're mostly women and you know, it's there's an extra burden on women. You know, we just talked about hair, you know, earlier.

00;25;59;01 - 00;26;01;04
Wendy Covey
What's happening is recruiting.

00;26;01;04 - 00;26;02;23
Nicole Donnelly
All of that stuff. Yeah.

00;26;02;23 - 00;26;17;14
Wendy Covey
And then and then let's face it, you know, child care often falls more on women. And so there's that, too. And then, you know, when you work virtually, you can be there when they get off the school bus every day. And that is a benefit that you can't put dollars on.

00;26;17;19 - 00;26;21;13
Nicole Donnelly
So, yeah, that's so true. Tell me about your kids, Wendy. How many kids?

00;26;22;04 - 00;26;32;21
Wendy Covey
Well, you can't call them kids anymore. So I have a 22 year old son in Grayson and a 19 year old daughter named Lauren. And so they're out. I'm an empty nester.

00;26;33;15 - 00;26;42;05
Nicole Donnelly
I started I bet when you I bet when you go out with them, they probably think that people probably think you're their sister. I know they need to be like.

00;26;42;20 - 00;26;52;24
Wendy Covey
Oh, you know, young aunt. Yeah, I'll go with that. Maybe not quite, sister, but yeah, I do get some surprise. Looks for sure. And I'm okay with that. I'll hang onto that as long as I can.

00;26;54;01 - 00;27;17;03
Nicole Donnelly
Yeah, that's amazing. Well, it makes me think like, you know, you were really progressive on the remote work front, but as an employer, what do you feel like? It's kind of like looking forward the next five, ten years. What kind of benefits do you feel are going to be really important for employers to be offering to employees to kind of improve that retention and help them feel, you know, create that great brand culture?

00;27;17;03 - 00;27;19;09
Nicole Donnelly
Like what are you investing in in that regard?

00;27;19;09 - 00;27;42;08
Wendy Covey
Gosh, it's such a good question, and I'd love to have this all sorted out. But, you know, high level trends as I look to younger generations and their value being time over money like big time. And so just like we talked about the four day workweek, you know, things are oriented around time and experience is are valued more than just throwing more money at it.

00;27;42;19 - 00;28;01;07
Wendy Covey
And as an experiment on this, a few years ago, I said, okay, guys, like if you want to work overtime, like if you want to do, you know, extra 50 hours or 60, like we'll pay extra for that. No one, no one to do that. Okay, guys, if you want to do like sales on the side, you know, and refer people, I'll pay extra for that.

00;28;01;07 - 00;28;21;29
Wendy Covey
Yet no one wanted to do that. So it was like, okay, I hear you loud and clear. So instead we invest in an annual team retreat. In fact, we just came back from Mars. It was two weeks ago in Fort Lauderdale, and we rented a giant house on the Intercoastal, which is a waterway there. And everybody just loved it.

00;28;21;29 - 00;28;41;21
Wendy Covey
I mean, just I can't even tell you, you know, what the feedback was. It was so positive. And so it's like, okay, okay, that is that's time and experiences. It's not about money. Yes, it costs money to do that. But the experiment experience was so, you know, much more than giving a company performance bonus or something like that.

00;28;42;12 - 00;29;05;00
Nicole Donnelly
Yeah. Oh, I love that so much. Yep. I'm dreaming of doing our first retreat. Retreat that day will come soon. I have it in my mind and I'm like, Oh, I can't wait till I think coming out of COVID, I think maybe people are realizing just how much they really need that, like time together in person. You know, people you work with, family, whatever the case may be.

00;29;05;00 - 00;29;14;03
Nicole Donnelly
I think that maybe was almost like a what's the word I want to say, a turning point maybe, or like a Absolutely.

00;29;14;03 - 00;29;35;19
Wendy Covey
It's like a soul searching moment in time. Like, yeah, I'll never forget going to the first in-person conference after COVID. And I don't think anybody in that room will forget that conference because it was first and just the feeling in the room there was it was really interesting. It was charged in a good way, like it was emotional.

00;29;35;19 - 00;29;43;08
Wendy Covey
And this was an engineering conference. It was an electronics engineering conference. But there it was an emotional time for everyone.

00;29;44;08 - 00;30;02;27
Nicole Donnelly
Yeah, it's almost like it's just like people have this new appreciation for connection that maybe wasn't as felt as much before, but going through that, people just really it forced them to be really realized how important it is that we we are connected. And to find those ways to connect. Yeah. Oh, that's so cool. I love that you're doing that.

00;30;02;27 - 00;30;26;07
Nicole Donnelly
So cool, man. Thank you. Would be a fun team to work on. I work. That's so cool. Those. I'm sure that those your employees just absolutely love working with you. That's so great. It was a good time. Cool. Well, okay, so I want to shift gears a little bit and talk marketing. You and I are both marketers. Do it, Let's do it.

00;30;26;17 - 00;30;48;12
Nicole Donnelly
So I am just dying to hear what your perspective is on this chat. CBT. I know everybody's talking about this, but I am just really curious about your thoughts on this. As a content marketer like, you know, the way that the chat CBT was built, there's not really a mechanism in place, if you will, for for it to be verified.

00;30;48;12 - 00;31;15;06
Nicole Donnelly
Anything that's true or not, right? It's just basically creating content from whatever is already out there. And it has doesn't have the self-awareness to say, Oh, this is true and this is not. And then which leads to a larger question of like, who determines what's true or not, even if they were to create that. Right. So I guess my question to you is, is like, as you know, businesses are thinking about how to build trust with their customers, which is really, you know, content marketing is all about building that trust.

00;31;16;01 - 00;31;31;21
Nicole Donnelly
How do you see this playing out in the next five, ten years with, you know, the increased use of this chat, chickweed and AI and like the erosion of truth and trust and, you know, what's your take on all of that? That's a big question. I know. I know.

00;31;31;21 - 00;31;58;29
Wendy Covey
It's hey, it's a timely question. And we've been spending we at TREW Marketing has been spending a lot of time on this, too. And it's it's timely that you asked because we just wrapped up a research project where we piloted writing technical content on chat, CBT, Jasper and Writer, and we played around. I don't know if you've heard Canva has magic, right, which is their.

00;31;59;00 - 00;31;59;15
Nicole Donnelly
Oh.

00;31;59;22 - 00;32;28;09
Wendy Covey
Yeah, generative A.I. tool as well. So we're fresh off of this pilot. It was really cool. I will. I'll send you. We created a guidebook that walked through the whole pilot and what we learned. But basically, I'll tell you, maybe, maybe some benefits and drawbacks and what we found. So the issues I mean, obviously you brought up the factual thing and on top of that, Chappy shipped in particular said they stop with data sets after 2021.

00;32;28;09 - 00;32;29;01
Wendy Covey
So imagine.

00;32;30;23 - 00;32;31;23
Nicole Donnelly
Yeah, yeah.

00;32;32;06 - 00;32;57;28
Wendy Covey
And so what we did is we tried a case study, a series of blog posts on a similar topic, and I think there were some shorter form things too. And what we found was first they were writing things in a average sixth grade level. So imagine if your target audience is an engineer or a any B2B professional should be writing at sixth grade, there was a lot of repetition.

00;32;58;16 - 00;33;22;14
Wendy Covey
So it might say a dinham ometer is good for this. A dynamic ometer is also good for this. Sometimes it would lose itself and repeat things in weird places. So that happens. But but even let's say it got the facts right, which is doubtful. But but let's say you did because this is going to get better. The whole faxing, perhaps it'll get better.

00;33;23;15 - 00;33;51;17
Wendy Covey
There's something lost with your brand in your tone, in reinforcing your messages. So in the quest for giving you original content chat, chip writer or Jasper, whoever is ignoring your company's messaging. Yeah. Is there purposely not trying to overlap with it to be original? But. But you're missing this opportunity to sound like your company, right? So it's not necessarily helping you.

00;33;52;03 - 00;34;16;06
Wendy Covey
And in fact, in some cases it's defining a technical term in a very arduous way to try to not use the industry standard term. Yeah, I mean, there's only so many. Back to Dynamo Ometer, for example, there's a Dynamo ometer is a dynamo ometer. It's not a tool that does this for this and this. Yeah, it's, it's, it's a noun, you know.

00;34;16;28 - 00;34;38;26
Wendy Covey
So we saw some of that and anyway it's a lot of red lining, you know, it didn't save us time, but it did do some things. So it wasn't all bad. It served as a good brainstorming buddy. So think like the blank page syndrome. Like I need to write a white paper or a case study or whatever on this topic.

00;34;39;08 - 00;34;58;20
Wendy Covey
You know, what are some things I could say? And they'll spit back some things and you could call through those, you know, you could brainstorm with this on headlines, like, here's my case study, it's done. What are some good headlines for this or what are some good social posts? So we see it for now is better for brainstorming.

00;34;59;00 - 00;35;15;01
Wendy Covey
And then, you know, there's this other set of tools that is also driven, but they're more SEO oriented like market news. And those are great too. They're brainstorming buddies on here. Keywords You should insert into your piece.

00;35;15;05 - 00;35;18;03
Nicole Donnelly
So I get Muse. I'm curious about this now.

00;35;18;23 - 00;35;45;22
Wendy Covey
Okay, so Market Muse is really cool, but really expensive. So right now their business model doesn't really work unless you're an enterprise company, unfortunately. But you should check them out just to see what it has. And maybe in the future they'll have a lighter version for smaller companies. But think of it as like your content strategy companion to help you with topic clustering and keyword analysis and things like that.

00;35;45;22 - 00;36;09;03
Wendy Covey
And there's some overlap with what HubSpot does in that sense too. But Market Muse goes deeper. You know, there's HCM RUSH That tool goes way deep on the exercise side, but it doesn't generate content. So you mentioned the Venn diagram. It's kind of like you have generative, you know, we're going to write for you and then we're going to help you do content better.

00;36;09;03 - 00;36;12;06
Wendy Covey
And there's some overlap in those two.

00;36;12;06 - 00;36;41;11
Nicole Donnelly
That's such a great analysis. I hadn't even thought about like brand tone and voice because as you say, that it makes so much sense because the whole purpose of the bot is to just conglomerate or aggregate whatever else is out there. So do you want your brand to be, you know, this aggregate of what what I just like, you know, as brands I think it's the opportunity for brands is to really position themselves uniquely and you have to get that you lose.

00;36;41;11 - 00;36;42;12
Wendy Covey
Your point of view.

00;36;42;23 - 00;36;43;05
Nicole Donnelly
Because.

00;36;43;09 - 00;37;05;09
Wendy Covey
You know, even like I said, the SEO implications, yeah, it's just not authentic. So it's a shortcut and I see why it's tempting for small business owners to just let me just write blog posts and on the surface they look good. But when you think about these things are really non authentic and eventually this is a theory, but I've heard this several times now.

00;37;05;09 - 00;37;15;18
Wendy Covey
Eventually Google is going to catch up with this and have their ways of detecting that. This is a I created and I have a feeling punishment is coming.

00;37;15;18 - 00;37;16;24
Nicole Donnelly
Because I do.

00;37;16;27 - 00;37;17;15
Wendy Covey
After all.

00;37;18;03 - 00;37;21;27
Nicole Donnelly
People on Google like nothing can take down Google. Right.

00;37;22;02 - 00;37;30;29
Wendy Covey
And hurt. And they're scrambling on this, no doubt because people are going to chat CBT for their quick answers instead of Google. Now just for the novelty of it.

00;37;31;14 - 00;37;32;00
Nicole Donnelly
Oh yeah.

00;37;32;06 - 00;37;34;22
Wendy Covey
So there's going to be a reckoning. Nicole.

00;37;35;08 - 00;37;56;17
Nicole Donnelly
Your recording, your reckoning. I totally agree with your assessment that like chatbots and these should be used for research. Think about them as like the research, the starting point, right? But like for the actual content creation, especially if you're dealing like you are with like really technical buyers, really niche products, like there's just no way that anything can replace that.

00;37;56;21 - 00;38;11;25
Nicole Donnelly
Submit that subject matter expert who has expertise. But for research, it's great to see what's out there. Okay, well, what is what is already out there on the specific topic, start from there and then you can figure out where you can what you want, your unique perspective to be on that specific topic.

00;38;11;27 - 00;38;43;01
Wendy Covey
Actually, my team did uncover one use case for chat GPT. That is interesting and it's the idea of a glossary page. So if you wanted a page on your web site, it's just factual. Like what is RF you know, or what is what is a laser, how can blah blah blah type of laser be used for. But so things that aren't point of view, things that don't need to be branded, that are just stating facts, you can generate that very quickly.

00;38;43;09 - 00;39;08;06
Wendy Covey
So so that's a great I like that use case that made sense. But for everything else say you wanted to create derivative content from a white paper and then and then derivative to social posts or three blog posts or whatever the other tools. Jasper and Writer are much better at doing that, and they're best at the really short lists like headlines and Social Post.

00;39;08;16 - 00;39;21;23
Wendy Covey
They're still not there on the white paper to blog post kind of scenario, but our hope is that they'll get there and we think they will. So other things to keep in mind because that for us and for you would save a lot of time, right? Oh yeah.

00;39;21;24 - 00;39;31;19
Nicole Donnelly
Like absolutely. Being able to create blog posts from like webinar transcripts and meeting minutes and all of those like kind of more ad mini type of things, right?

00;39;31;23 - 00;39;40;11
Wendy Covey
So I think that's coming. But it started with your original content and I think your point that to your point, that's exactly so let's, let's keep that tight.

00;39;40;23 - 00;40;02;06
Nicole Donnelly
That needs to still be tight. And I think there's the opportunity that is like for business owners to be thinking about like doing more events like this, doing more webinars, podcasts where you're actually engaging in conversation, where you're the ideas and the thought leadership is like in that moment, you replicate that. A bot can never replicate what you learn.

00;40;02;06 - 00;40;05;10
Nicole Donnelly
You and I together having a conversation, you know, no way.

00;40;05;10 - 00;40;06;03
Wendy Covey
Good luck, but.

00;40;07;29 - 00;40;20;14
Nicole Donnelly
Good luck synthetic intelligence. I heard that on a podcast the other day that we shouldn't be thinking about it as a bot. It's really synthetic intelligence and we'll be like, Oh, all right, some. So anyway, well, that's.

00;40;20;23 - 00;40;26;04
Wendy Covey
What you will you leave your husband for me? Synthetic intelligence robot asks.

00;40;26;26 - 00;40;30;15
Nicole Donnelly
Whatever you like. I don't know if you've ever seen that movie her, but it's.

00;40;30;15 - 00;40;34;02
Wendy Covey
Yeah, and I keep thinking of that lately. Yes, I think will.

00;40;34;12 - 00;40;42;28
Nicole Donnelly
Be It's so creepy or anyway, what we could. Yeah we can move on from that. We'll move on from that for now. Okay.

00;40;43;23 - 00;40;44;21
Wendy Covey
What else do you have for us?

00;40;44;26 - 00;41;02;08
Nicole Donnelly
Okay. Yeah. So I would also love to hear just about like, how, how are you marketing your business now, knowing what you know, like what has worked for TREW Marketing, Like, you know, how have you like what's worked for you and what hasn't worked? And what do you do now to market your business?

00;41;02;15 - 00;41;48;05
Wendy Covey
Yeah, great question. So what we did at the beginning that is worked through our time is speaking engagements. So in from being getting in front of other people's communities, whether that be virtually or in person, hands down has always works will continue to work because when it's somebody else's community but you're given the forum to kind of, you know, speak and improve out that you know something this subject and and so there there's something special about that and when you can be there in person that's great so that that first and foremost and then the content marketing playbook and inbound marketing.

00;41;48;14 - 00;42;12;01
Wendy Covey
So the idea of publishing content on a consistent basis and attracting people to your website, building trust, nurturing them, you know, it's the, the typical playbook for inbound is absolutely work for us to the degree that I haven't had to do a cold sales outreach type of thing in probably six years. So, you know, I mean, part of that is branding as well.

00;42;12;01 - 00;42;42;22
Wendy Covey
But but I put most of it on content marketing. I believe in it. It works. And I will say when Google changed their algorithm last year, we were horrified, quickly punished. And ironically, it was because of also content marketing. So we had been blogging twice a week for over a decade. And over time, you know, we'll blog on similar subjects, but it'll be a new author or whatever.

00;42;43;01 - 00;43;11;21
Wendy Covey
And they were similar enough that we were punished for that. It was it was hard, in other words, to read through and see what are you really about and what are you not about? Some of our topics are very general, some are very niche. So when they change their algorithm, I think that strategy actually hurt us and we had to get rid of a lot of content, which sounds really counterintuitive to the ME of three years ago looking at content marketing.

00;43;12;02 - 00;43;36;29
Nicole Donnelly
Right? Yeah. No, that's so interesting. I was just reading something about that specifically that Google is rewarding now, maybe less content, but more in-depth pieces of the trade. Engage like a lot of like pieces of content on the same topic that maybe slightly like you just said. So I think that's interesting, but maybe a little less overwhelming for someone just getting started, you know, with it because it's not like, Oh my gosh, I've got to write.

00;43;36;29 - 00;43;49;29
Nicole Donnelly
Like I've got to create this pillar piece and then create like 12 sub articles all around the same thing. So I think that's all shifting. I mean, I'm curious your perspective on that whole like topical cluster. Like how is that shift? How are you addressing that now.

00;43;50;12 - 00;44;03;15
Wendy Covey
The pillar pages, those long scrolling pages work incredibly well and long blogs get great engagement to old blogs. When someone gets there and realizes it's it's.

00;44;03;15 - 00;44;03;28
Nicole Donnelly
Old.

00;44;04;09 - 00;44;12;07
Wendy Covey
Is a means to balance or if it's too short. So that's, you know, the punishment of the old stuff. So that's big.

00;44;12;12 - 00;44;14;20
Nicole Donnelly
Position is key. Making sure you're updating.

00;44;15;01 - 00;44;15;29
Wendy Covey
What gets.

00;44;16;03 - 00;44;17;01
Nicole Donnelly
Regular basis.

00;44;17;01 - 00;44;40;06
Wendy Covey
Let's add another thing that we had and this cracks me up, but we leaned into video couple of years and we had videos on our website and they were hosted through YouTube. And then I think we had them embedded and I don't remember exactly what it was, but I know that YouTube is involved somehow. I guess we were pulling them in from YouTube and the load time was just slow enough that Google was punishing us.

00;44;40;06 - 00;45;06;27
Wendy Covey
Even though YouTube is their engine. So there were some technical aspects that you need to know so you know not to get all weedy on everything echo, but that's been our biggest learning thing of the past couple of years, is as SEO rapidly changes and Google has this power to change their algorithm and completely reshuffle how businesses grow or don't grow that are reliant upon search.

00;45;07;04 - 00;45;14;21
Wendy Covey
And it was a very big lesson for me as a small business owner, you know, of just staying on top of that and acting quickly.

00;45;15;10 - 00;45;28;06
Nicole Donnelly
Yeah, and maybe even like trying to make sure that you don't have all your eggs in one basket, if you will, right? Yeah. Like all in on SEO, but trying to make sure you have, you know, different ways to bring in new business. Yeah.

00;45;28;15 - 00;45;39;08
Wendy Covey
And I will say, you know, inbound was working so well for us. I had a lot of eggs in that SEO basket and that was like where all my leads like, what just happen? Like where are the visits?

00;45;40;14 - 00;45;41;27
Nicole Donnelly
So yeah, so.

00;45;41;28 - 00;45;46;25
Wendy Covey
Okay, I'm almost over it. I'm still a little angry at Google, but I.

00;45;47;23 - 00;45;55;15
Nicole Donnelly
I know. My goodness, she's. And you're so insightful, Wendy. I could just talk to you all day.

00;45;55;21 - 00;46;19;04
Wendy Covey
Oh, well, you need to credit my team and uncover a lot of that. I'm just. I'm just soaking it in and, you know, making business decisions based on, you know. Yeah, it's important to measure, right? Imagine if we were measuring that in these businesses to have a website and have no idea that their website traffic just tanked and all of a sudden they're not getting forms and they don't know why, you know, and filling out their contact us form or whatever.

00;46;19;15 - 00;46;28;04
Nicole Donnelly
You know. That is so true. Yeah, that's why marketing is so important. So everyone who's listening, you need to measure. You need to be able to know what's going on.

00;46;28;15 - 00;46;29;26
Wendy Covey
Absolutely.

00;46;29;26 - 00;46;55;27
Nicole Donnelly
For Wendy, this has been such an honor having you on the show. I've learned so, so, so much from you. I can't thank you enough for coming on and sharing all about your business experience and your marketing acumen and everything. It's amazing. So my last and final question is more of a fun one, and that is I feel like you may I may already be able to guess what this is, but if you could do anything, anywhere, go anywhere, be with anyone, what would be like your dream day?

00;46;56;04 - 00;46;59;29
Nicole Donnelly
What would be like the dream? Wendy Covey This is like, what would you be doing?

00;47;00;14 - 00;47;27;24
Wendy Covey
Okay, I want to hear your guests fishing. Definitely. Well, I will expand upon that. It definitely involves fishing, but our happy place is Costa Rica and which is a very quick trip from Texas, from Austin. So we love to go and not only fish, but ride four wheelers and play on the beach. And so if I am doing that with my family and friends, that is the absolute perfect day.

00;47;28;13 - 00;47;31;22
Nicole Donnelly
Oh, that sounds amazing. So when are you going to Costa Rica next? Whenever.

00;47;31;23 - 00;47;47;17
Wendy Covey
Well, I you know, we don't have it on the calendar yet, but we have acted discussions because a friend of ours now has a business, a new business down there chartering fishing trips. And he's been in our ear about availability and get on down here. So.

00;47;48;05 - 00;47;59;25
Nicole Donnelly
Oh, man. Sounds like you need to make it happen. Wendy Yeah, absolutely. It's awesome. Well, thank you so much. I really appreciate it. And where can our guests reach you if they want to want to get in touch with you or how can they find you?

00;48;00;08 - 00;48;25;27
Wendy Covey
Sure. So on LinkedIn, just my name, Wendy Covey. And then separately, TREW Marketing. It's trewmarketing.com. And when you go there, that guidebook about this chatGPT and all that is is up there and I just did a podcast about it too. So the podcast is Content Marketing Engineered and you can find that on your, you know, whatever your favorite listening platform is.

00;48;25;27 - 00;48;33;03
Wendy Covey
So go check it out. In fact, you'll hear Nicole on it coming up shortly. So that'll be exciting.

00;48;33;11 - 00;48;36;20
Nicole Donnelly
Yes. Thank you so much, Wendy. We'll talk to you soon.

00;48;37;05 - 00;48;38;08
Wendy Covey
Thank you for having me.

00;48;39;14 - 00;49;01;26
Julie Basello
Tales of Misadventure is produced, edited and moderated by Julie Basello with Basello Media Music by Marcus Wei. Special thanks to our amazing guests and the entire DMG digital team. Visit us at DMGDigital.io to get access to all our podcast interviews and other resources. And if you'd like to get updates on the latest and greatest, please sign up for our email newsletter.

00;49;02;11 - 00;49;08;10
Julie Basello
We'll see you next time for another episode of Tales of Misadventure. Until then, keep falling forward.


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Nicole Donnelly

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