Tales of Misadventure with Nicole Donnelly

Grounded Risk: Let Go of the Fear and Embrace Entrepreneurial Discomfort

• Brian Leung • Season 1 • Episode 2

Share episode

Inexperience and a financial crisis didn’t stop SwiftAds owner, Brian Leung, from embarking on his entrepreneurial journey. He chats with Nicole about the blunders, the lessons, his gracious wife, putting the fear of misadventure in the right perspective, and the need for your business to build a digital storefront.

EPISODE SUMMARY

What do rock climbing and entrepreneurship have in common? On our latest episode, Nicole chats with SwiftAds owner, Brian Leung, about their commonality, how his tenacious parents inspired his entrepreneurial journey, and the importance for small businesses to incorporate SEO and Google Ads into their marketing strategy now. Host and guest encourage budding entrepreneurs, solomarketers, manufacturers, and small business owners to “embrace the discomfort,” build a grounding support system, take risks, and keep forging ahead. 

ABOUT BRIAN LEUNG

Brian is a serial entrepreneur and owner/operator of SwiftAds and Treebud. SwiftAds was created to help advertisers 10x their revenue by automating ad creation, campaign monitoring, and optimization. Treebud Media is a full-service digital marketing agency.

Brian's on a mission to reach and help 1,000 small businesses improve or start their online advertising so more people can discover their businesses and ultimately, experience growth.

HIGHLIGHTS

  • Brian shares his love of taking risks and likens rock climbing to being a business owner or entrepreneur.  [06:33]
  • Hear the foundational story behind Brian’s entrepreneurial spirit. [08:23]
  • Starting a business in the middle of an economic crisis would deter most but not Brian. He opens up about his first business venture, the failures he experienced, and the lessons he learned.  [11:38]
  • Nicole sheds some light on the likelihood of finding success in your twenties and how experiencing some “hard knocks” improves your chances. [16:08]
  • Nicole and Brian discuss how small businesses can market and promote their business even during a recession. [29:55]
  • Find encouragement and sound advice, in Brian’s words, on taking calculated risks even when you’re afraid. [37:31]

EPISODE TRANSCRIPT

Find the full transcript at 

RESOURCES & LINKS

Looking to overcome marketing blunders and find inspiration from the experts who have been there?

Subscribe to Tales of Misadventure with Nicole Donnelly wherever you prefer to stream podcasts!

Get in touch with the team at Tales of Misadventure by visiting dmgdigital.io.

Don’t forget to enroll in our newsletter for more small business marketing tips and entrepreneurial inspiration! https://info.dmgdigital.io/welcome-to-dmg-digital

[00:00:00] Julie Basello: Hey there. Thanks for joining us for Tales of Misadventure, a podcast all about business blunders. On this podcast, Nicole Donnelly, founder of DMG Digital talks to entrepreneurs and learns how they turn their lemons into lemonade. DMG Digital is a full service marketing agency focused on helping manufacturers attract new buyers through digital self.

[00:00:23] Julie Basello: Nicole Donnelly is a fourth generation entrepreneur, a girl, mom, and an avid traveler. Now let's head into a Tale of Misadventure with your host, Nicole Donnelly. 

[00:00:36] Nicole Donnelly: Hi, good morning. Welcome to Tales of Misadventure, where we talk about entrepreneurial blunders, mishaps, mistakes and failures. I'm Nicole Donnelly.

[00:00:46] Nicole Donnelly: I'm the founder of DMG Digital, a marketing agency made for manufacturers. I am so excited and delighted to be joined today by Brian Lung. And Brian is a serial

[00:01:00] entrepreneur and owner operator of SwiftAds.io and Treebud. SwiftAds.io was created to help advertisers 10 times their revenue by automating the ad creation plus campaign monitoring and optimization.

[00:01:15] Nicole Donnelly: Treebud Media is a full service digital marketing. Brian's mission is to reach and help 1000 small businesses improve or start their online advertising so more people can learn about their business and ultimately grow their business. Welcome to the show, Brian. It's so nice to have you on, and I just have to say how much I love your mission.

[00:01:36] Nicole Donnelly: It speaks to me as a small business owner, as a fourth generation small business owner. My dad, my grandfather, my great-grandfather, all built and owned small businesses. So I have to say, I love the work that you're doing. It's super inspiring and super needed. There's so many small business owners out there who need this kind of help and support.

[00:01:53] Nicole Donnelly: So thank you for what you do, and thank you for joining our show

[00:01:56] Brian Leung: Hey, thanks for having me. And I always tell people kind of like the genesis story of of what SwiftAds is, and it stems from like me running an agency and recognizing not everyone can afford to hire me or free other freelancers. You know, as a small business owner, you know, cash flow might be here and there.

[00:02:18] Brian Leung: But I still want to help them grow because I saw how my dad struggled with their, with his business. My uncle was very successful on the other hand. And to a point, like they weren't still able to grow their businesses because they weren't able to tap into like, you know, good marketing, understanding

[00:02:37] Brian Leung: personas, for example. So I, I'm on a mission to change that because it's kind of cathartic for me to help, you know, the little boy in me that couldn't help my dad or my uncle, can now go out and help other people with what I know now. 

[00:02:54] Nicole Donnelly: Oh, I love that. And I bet your dad is so proud of you.

[00:02:57] Nicole Donnelly: He must just be so excited to see you do what you're doing, [00:03:00] and I'd love to hear about that. 

[00:03:01] Brian Leung: Does he like, yeah, he, as with most Chinese, like very traditional Chinese men the, the most approval I've, I've ever gone from him is like a smile and a nod, and, and him acknowledging the fact that, you know, oh, my son's doing better than me.

[00:03:18] Brian Leung: And that's sort of like the peak of improve. or approval and, and kind of acceptance. And, but this is, I I cherish those tiny little moments.

[00:03:31] Nicole Donnelly: Yes. You know, you do Right, right. With your parents. You do. I I know my dad was very similar. He wasn't one to give a lot of praise or affirmations. So you take it when you can get it and you just learn that you just gotta give it to yourself.

[00:03:43] Nicole Donnelly: Right. You just gotta give it to. Very cool. Well, thanks for joining our show today. We are talking all about business blunders, entrepreneurial mishaps, and, and we wanna kind of like take out the stigma, right? Like, failure is a part of life. And I think I'm on a [00:04:00] mission to try to encourage any aspiring entrepreneurs or entrepreneurs out there to understand and know that mistakes are gonna happen and we need to look at them as opportunities.

[00:04:09] Nicole Donnelly: And I think being able to have entrepreneurs come on the show and talk about some of their blenders and how they actually turn into huge opportunities and how they bounce back is something I'm hugely excited and passionate about to have this conversation with you today. So let's go ahead and kick it off.

[00:04:23] Nicole Donnelly: And let's just start off with a little bit of. Tell me a little bit about Brian, and we want, I want my, I want our guests to know a little bit about who you are and what drives you. So if you could spend your day doing whatever you wanted, wherever you wanted, what would you do? 

[00:04:38] Brian Leung: So I'm. , often people mistaken me for being a very introverted person.

[00:04:45] Brian Leung: For work, for you know, when I clock in, right? Yes. I put on a, a very high energy persona and try to be as infectious as possible with my energy. As you may see right now, but I'm actually very [00:05:00] much introvert, introverted to the chagrin of my wife. , I'm the type of person who would, you know, give me an internet connection and I can stay at home.

[00:05:09] Brian Leung: Not even like set a, set a step outside of the house for, for like days or may, sometimes even weeks on end, and I'll be perfectly happy. Yeah. No interaction with human beings and I, you know, just have my cat with me, for example, right? Yeah. Now, like with a baby, I, I'd love to spend my time with him.

[00:05:25] Brian Leung: . , my favorite thing to do is just go on a bike ride. I, and I live near the the, the lake. So I, I ride along the lake on the harbor. And then there's like a little nook kind of like a small hidden beach. I mean, I use the word beach very loosely compared to like, you know, Sydney and, and LA and all those other places.

[00:05:49] Brian Leung: But we do have a little tiny beach. And I plop down, do my emails read and that's sort of like my favorite thing to do in the world, especially in the mornings. [00:06:00] 

[00:06:00] Nicole Donnelly: I love it. That's so awesome. You know, I am an extrovert, like true extrovert in the biggest sense of the word, but I really cherish alone time too.

[00:06:10] Nicole Donnelly: And I think it surprises a lot of people that like sometimes I really just wanna be on my own and do exactly what you just did. Just sit and read and just decompress. And sometimes I just like to just go outside and just lay on the grass and not even do anything. So nice. So I love that. That's awesome.

[00:06:27] Nicole Donnelly: And, okay, tell me if something surprising most people wouldn't know about you. 

[00:06:33] Brian Leung: I'm actually fairly, like I, I take a lot of risk when it comes to business, and a lot of calculated risk. And that's also kind of, seen in my hobbies. I love rock climbing. And I have like this strange relationship with fear of heights where , I, there are moments where I'm deathly afraid of heights.

[00:06:58] Brian Leung: Especially, you know, you're, [00:07:00] you're, you know, a couple, you know, maybe like 50, 60 feet off the ground. You look down, you're like, Ooh, this is kind of scary. But there are moments where like, I'm just sitting, hanging on the rope and then just loving every moment of it. So it comes and goes. It's weird.

[00:07:14] Brian Leung: But yeah, I, a lot of people. When they learn more about what rock climbing is, they'll realize, oh yeah, that's like a direct correlation with being a business owner or entrepreneur. 

[00:07:28] Nicole Donnelly: I was absolutely just gonna say that because I think, I think as entrepreneurs sometimes we're like gluttons for punishment, like .

[00:07:35] Nicole Donnelly: I dunno about you. But I love the challenge of it. And sometimes it's just so hard. But that's what I love about it, like is the hard part. The, the fact that you do have to do things scared there. You have to embrace the discomfort and the uncertainty and it's like such a beautiful, I think push and pull, if you will.

[00:07:52] Nicole Donnelly: That makes it so exciting. So I love to hear that. You'd love to, to. To rock climb, but that you have a fear of heights at the same time. [00:08:00] Like yeah, that really speaks a lot to your, you're also being a serial entrepreneur as well, so very cool. Awesome. Okay, so when did you first know, it sounds like you were inspired by your dad and your uncle, um .

[00:08:14] Nicole Donnelly: to really get started, and that's what you wanted to do. Is it something you always wanted to do even when you were a little kid, was to, to, to be a business owner? Is it kind, did it kind to come to you over. , 

[00:08:23] Brian Leung: I think something that is the foundation of my entrepreneur spirit is to growing up we, we weren't very well off.

[00:08:34] Brian Leung: We lived in Like looking back that you started to realize, oh it wasn't because w w what we thought was normal, like growing up, my sister and I, what we thought was normal was just us being dirt poor. and looking back we're like, we realized how poor we were. Oh man. And it was just, I think the idea of being able to break that.

[00:08:59] Brian Leung: [00:09:00] right? . , because my parents were first generation immigrants. They had no education growing up. They had to pick up odd jobs, and the only way for them to kind of break out of that was to start their own business. Yeah. And them, you know, my, my father in particular, like, starting businesses, failing, starting again, et cetera, all of that kind of inspired me to Understand a bit more of like how one can succeed given our circumstances.

[00:09:33] Brian Leung: . , and to be quite honest, when I was younger I was just very motivated by just making more money and being able to provide financially for my parents cuz you know For, as an immigrant, there are very few opportunities for them to, for example, save up for retirement, right? Yeah. So now it's on, the onus is on my sister and I to kind of still be able to provide for them in their you know, later days.[00:10:00] 

[00:10:00] Brian Leung: I love 

[00:10:01] Nicole Donnelly: that. And I think it just speaks as a testament to you about how much you love and value family and the commitment that you have to your parents and the love that you have for them. I just, I think that's so amazing. So very cool. , and I love that you're keeping that legacy alive. You know, your, your father and your uncle being entrepreneurs and really trying to kind of drive that forward.

[00:10:21] Nicole Donnelly: I'm, I, my father was a successful entrepreneur, also my grandfather, my great grandfather. So I feel like it's in my blood, like it's this legacy that I have to honor and like, You know, kind of move the ball forward. And so, I just have always, from the time I was young, just been super curious also.

[00:10:39] Nicole Donnelly: . and interested in starting a business. Cause I saw the direct positive impact that it had on so many people and lives. Very cool. So let's see. Let's talk, let's talk a little bit about , let's talk a little bit about some of your biggest failures. Okay. Maybe if I, I want, let's just like, let's [00:11:00] have story time if you will, a little bit.

[00:11:01] Nicole Donnelly: Let's, let's, let's sit down and have a story like open up the book. I'm pretend I'm your, your, your wonderful son Asher, and you're reading him a bedtime story. Okay. And tell me a story about an experience that you had in one of your businesses that was just, just when everything was going wrong, you. and you just, everything was falling apart and .

[00:11:26] Nicole Donnelly: you had to figure out what to do with that failure. Walk us through what that, like, what was, what happened? What was the what, what was the failure? What, what led to it? And let's do a little, once upon a time, . 

[00:11:38] Brian Leung: Yeah. So once I graduated, I was fortunate. So funny enough, I graduated in the financial crisis, but I was fortunate enough to be hired right out of school.

[00:11:51] Brian Leung: So I, I was in a much better position than a lot of my peers, and then a bunch of my friends, [00:12:00] like I have a biochem BA background, so, um-huh . I, I went to school for biochem in business and half of my friends are really successful at consultants. Um . in like big firms, big they're accountants they're like junior partners and whatnot.

[00:12:15] Brian Leung: And then half of my friends are, are doctors and, and you know, literally doing research on cur cancer. And I. , I, I felt a bit inadequate having like, gone down like a route of being a, a marketer compared to like all my accountant and finance friends, , , 

[00:12:35] Nicole Donnelly: they're like saving lives and you know, you're just like trying to help people, you know, make more money.

[00:12:42] Brian Leung: Yep. And, and it was like the case of like, grass is always greener, but that's a store, probably a story for another time. Yeah, I, my first venture was , I worked with a few of my friends that were still in school for filmmaking. And I knew how difficult it was [00:13:00] to break into the filmmaking industry and as an artist.

[00:13:04] Brian Leung: And students, they were in a position where there was no capital basically for them to start their projects. So I kind of stepped in having, you know, I was still at home. , I still, I still had a bit of student debt, but then there was like that grace period where there's zero interest.

[00:13:22] Brian Leung: So, 0% interest. And I was already working, earning decent salary coming out of school. So I was like, you know what? I'm gonna help help my friends out and fund some of the projects. And it was just a lot of , it was just a, basically pouring thousands of dollars. And you know, in hindsight at the time, if it didn't feel like it was a lot of money, it felt bad.

[00:13:52] Brian Leung: But then in the grand scheme of things like, oh, that, that was, you know, money well spent. But yeah, that the, [00:14:00] when you're young, you feel invincible and you feel like you know you everything. And I think those were kind of, . The biggest things like, we're like gungho, we're like, you know what? We're gonna do this.

[00:14:09] Brian Leung: We're gonna break down all the barriers. Carve our own path and, you know, Reality. It, we butted heads against reality. 

[00:14:19] Nicole Donnelly: Right. And what was that reality? What happened? So you invested all this money in this, this, it was an, it was a product, right? Tell, tell us a little bit specifically about what this money was being invested and what it was gonna do.

[00:14:31] Brian Leung: So it was a lot of hiring talent. Yeah. Getting the, the correct equipment. So I'm a sticker for like quality equipment, and a lot of, I'll be honest, like there was some legal stuff involved because like we had to make sure the contracts were correct. Some of the contracts weren't correct cause we were like copy and pasting off of things like we found on the internet and this was like more than 10 years ago.

[00:14:59] Brian Leung: [00:15:00] Right. So it's like , the search engines weren't as powerful as they are now. So a lot of like trial and error . , the, the money went into several different projects that didn't get off the ground and. The biggest thing I learned through that is nothing replaces experience in any field.

[00:15:22] Brian Leung: That's so true. One, you always hear about like the, the stories of people like they dropped out, you know, 19 years old, they're running million dollar companies. But there's something to be said about CEOs being much, much older than 19. Right. And having that business acumen, having that , well, like in the trenches type of experience.

[00:15:49] Brian Leung: So nothing replaces that. And that was a very hard lesson to learn and quite quite rightly, it put me in, [00:16:00] on a path of like much more humility and learning, learning that I can learn from. Yeah. 

[00:16:09] Nicole Donnelly: Oh, I love that. And you're so right about that. I think there, there's actually research that shows that people who start businesses, like there's this, there's this idea that, you know, founders who start in their early twenties are usually more successful, right?

[00:16:22] Nicole Donnelly: They started young and they're brilliant or whatever, but actually the reverse is true. You know, the, the, the real, the real data shows that. You know, founders who start later in life, who start after, they've had some of those hard knocks and those real life experiences actually tend to be more successful than the ones that are starting out young and, and absolutely.

[00:16:40] Nicole Donnelly: You know, so that's, that's so cool. I love that story. So when you did your next venture, right, like, so you, it sounded like you had invested all this money in this company and all of these, you know, this equipment and services and it didn't go right. Had you, what went wrong about it? Was it just not the right market fit?

[00:16:59] Nicole Donnelly: Did you just, did [00:17:00] you make some assumptions on who was gonna actually wanna buy this, this, this, you know, the, like, what was it that went wrong that you were like, okay, this is a complete bomb. 

[00:17:10] Brian Leung: I think the So our first, our most successful project was a dating advice show on YouTube, And this was like 10 10 to 12 years ago.

[00:17:25] Brian Leung: . , in, so 2010, so it was, yeah. 12 years ago. And this was like way before any like, type of scripted shows were popular on YouTube and what I think was the. It, it's a bit of timing and also . , our inexperience, um . not knowing how much grits and commitment it takes to keep a project like that going.

[00:17:54] Brian Leung: . , especially with multiple. Moving parts. So we had four talents to [00:18:00] manage. A camera person, my one, my friend and me and then a few other people who were handling the administration. And this was like, I was not even 25. So , like all these things were kind of, like the marketplace was. I think we were a bit be ahead of the ahead of the game.

[00:18:23] Brian Leung: . and we just were too young to stick it out, and then of course bills had to pay be paid. Yep. Some of the talents moved on to different projects because they, it paid more than, you know, what we were able to afford and. Life just got busier for a few of us, and then it just fell to the wayside.

[00:18:45] Brian Leung: If I were to do it again I would have probably hired someone or worked with a mentor that had way more experience than me because, like, again, like nothing replaces experience and, and having someone [00:19:00] who is a steady hand, who is a veteran in the space an expert in the space. Guide me or guide the ship would have made the an entire world of difference.

[00:19:11] Brian Leung: Oh, 

[00:19:11] Nicole Donnelly: that's such a great point. I love what you say there about mentorship that is so, so huge to find someone who's been down the path before and they can help you down it. I know I've had, I've been blessed with so many mentors in my career that have . done that for me. Just like really brilliant marketers who have, you know, taught me more than I could have ever learned on my own, even with my own resourcefulness, you know, from their experience, right?

[00:19:33] Nicole Donnelly: . , they. Experience is a great teacher and is, if you're young and you're, you're wanting to be an entrepreneur and you wanna jump in, you know, take advantage of the experiences that mentors can provide for you. You know, find someone who's done what you've done and gone down that path and really use that and, and frankly, like, , they wanna help, you know?

[00:19:52] Nicole Donnelly: . people love to help and, and to be helpful. So if it's in your job, find, make sure you're making time to get that mentorship [00:20:00] or even outside of it. I think that's really great advice. And it sounds like too, like funding is a big thing, right? Like making sure that the project is funded well enough so that you're not in this position where you're having to make like really tough quick decisions.

[00:20:14] Nicole Donnelly: you know, you have the, the, the bandwidth to kind of like run with it more runway, if you will. So, absolutely. Very cool. Love that. And what was the impact that, that decision made? So you, it sounds like you shut down that business, it was not working. So what did you take from it? What was the like nugget that you took to your next venture to kind of help that be more successful, if you will?

[00:20:38] Brian Leung: I think Being patient was an aspect of it. And understanding when things are right. So, as entrepreneurs you, you have to trust your gut a lot, your instincts. And I think there is a huge element of there, there's like the two sides of that coin where you trust your instincts, which involves a lot of confidence.[00:21:00] 

[00:21:00] Brian Leung: But you should also be, he like humble and enough to understand like, Get signals from people and be willing to listen to people because that should balance that has to balance out. that, you know, the risk aspect. So timing and, and being more patient is are two things because of I, and I had the gut feeling that it was the right thing to do.

[00:21:25] Brian Leung: So time and time again as I look back and, and kind of reflect on all my past ventures, I knew each time I started that the timing was right. But often. , all of these ventures, I rushed into it due to maybe lack of experience, naïveté or just sheer overconfidence, , 

[00:21:49] Nicole Donnelly: which told me, which is not a bad thing, right?

[00:21:51] Nicole Donnelly: Exactly. Right. Like you have to be confident. You have to be. You know, you have to believe in what it is that you're offering. 

[00:21:58] Brian Leung: And it sounds like just having a healthy [00:22:00] dose of like, humility, healthy dose of like self-doubt as well. Just not so much that you are like neuro absolutely anxious or neurotic about everything, but yeah, I get your point.

[00:22:12] Nicole Donnelly: Yeah. But you know what you're, what's interesting about that is it's almost like those failures do humble you. So over time, the mistakes that you make, those are humbling. And it, it's that, that kind of like feeds into like the future choices that you make because you get that humility from being knocked down over and over again.

[00:22:29] Nicole Donnelly: So when you step up the next time, you're gonna come into it with a lot more patience, humility, et cetera. Exactly. So I think that's interesting because it sounds. You know, you said, you said, looking back, your instincts told you that you should do this. It's, it's almost like even though you made these big mistakes and the first venture didn't go well, it still was the right choice for you because it took you and led you to the next one.

[00:22:52] Nicole Donnelly: Right? So looking back, it wasn't like, oh man, I should have never done this. It was a complete failure. Why did I waste my time? It's more [00:23:00] like that experience led me to this next, you know, opportunity, which, what, you know, what led me to this next opportunity? So looking at it in that positive mindset of like, what can you learn, you know, almost like an after action review like the Navy seals do, right?

[00:23:14] Nicole Donnelly: . like what went well, what didn't go well? What can we learn next time? If you can like, kind of bake that into everything that you do as an entrepreneur, it tw turns it from being this like really negative, oh my gosh, into this is all just part of the process of life and learning, and what can I do to, to take this to the next big?

[00:23:33] Nicole Donnelly: so very cool. Okay, so I would love to know what is you, what do you think is your biggest shortcoming and how do you manage it? Because as entrepreneurs we're not good at everything. We're, you know, it's if only right, if only we could just be perfect and do everything perfectly. So what do you see as your biggest shortcomings and what do you do to manage them?

[00:23:52] Brian Leung: So it's funny, which actually ties into my second venture and what I've learned from that experience [00:24:00] is the second venture I went into is also film adjacent, but now more into the marketing sphere. I went into a project to help market. I joined a team to market this documentary and I was really, really bad at networking.

[00:24:18] Brian Leung: . and building up. Like knowing whom to tap and whom to talk to for the right resources at the right time and maintaining those relationships. So this was maybe 20 14, 20 15. . . Right around that period of time I was very, very involved with the startup community here in, in Toronto.

[00:24:41] Brian Leung: . , some of the Most well known startups from Toronto started around that time, and I was connected. I was fortunate enough to connect with a lot of founders at that time. Mm. Very nice. But I, if the thing is, if I had kept in touch with them, [00:25:00] I would've been in a much better position launching my current startup, but I didn't .

[00:25:06] Brian Leung: because again, goes back to that introversion and, and sort of that overconfidence of like, oh, I can do this by myself. Situation, and that's, My biggest shortcoming is not knowing how to network well and not knowing how to maintain those relationships. I do a better job now because as I've learned over the years and, oh, God bless my wife, she's amazing because she is, she is that type of networking person and she, she's kind of in our relationship.

[00:25:38] Brian Leung: She's kind of like helped me to know how to build and maintain relat. Right. The, the funniest thing I always tell people is that she tells me everything. There are oftentimes in the back of my head, I was like, oh, this is so boring. Why is she telling me this ? But I still listen. Yeah. [00:26:00] And what I've learned is that a lot of the things that I find boring, are kind of like the, the typical things people talk about to maintain relationships and it's like, okay, note to self, don't skip the boring stuff.

[00:26:12] Brian Leung: Or at least what I found boring, right? Cause people find it interesting to know more about you, to know, you know what you're up to, that type of stuff. So I'm making a more conscious effort. Again, thanks to my beautiful wife, she's amazing. Aw, yeah. That helped me learn about this and, and sort of managing it.

[00:26:29] Brian Leung: I have systems in place where you know, I have notes. When I, when I meet people, I have almost like a, a C m s, like a customer management system. Wow. But for, for people that I, I meet To kind of make sure I keep in touch with them. But to be honest, I'm still really, really bad at it. So I take every opportunity I get to learn from others.

[00:26:54] Nicole Donnelly: Oh, I love that. I love that you've kind of created a process for yourself, like you figured out like, this is a challenge of mine. So to make [00:27:00] this work for me, I need to have a process behind it so I can stay on top of it. Yeah. And so I'm curious. , how does that cadence look like with your contacts? Like do you have like a cadence where you automate it to say, I need to check in with so-and-so after a certain amount of time?

[00:27:13] Nicole Donnelly: And is it different per contact or like that's, I'm curious about that. That's so cool. 

[00:27:18] Brian Leung: So there was once upon a time, an entire system like that. Very sophisticated in the sense where like, okay, this isn't, you know, I kind of categorized everyone in my life. It's like, okay, these are close friends, these are friends, these are people from church whom I whom might need to keep on top of.

[00:27:35] Brian Leung: And make sure, you know, we're kind of in each other's lives participating in each other's lives. These, these are family members, et cetera, et cetera. and then there's like a cadence to, like you said, you know, for example, acquaintances is obviously much more infrequent than, you know, contacting my cousins for example.

[00:27:53] Brian Leung: But as I kind of learned and, and sort of developed that habit, it, I, [00:28:00] I relied less on that, those like tools and, and I guess like, or less in less organic type of interactions to a more organic sit type where, cuz now I understand better how to, you know, keep in touch with people. , as odd as 

[00:28:15] Nicole Donnelly: that sounds, it sounds like your wife has really taught you a lot.

[00:28:17] Nicole Donnelly: She's been a mentor for you in that regard, so, oh 

[00:28:20] Brian Leung: yeah. She's, she's an absolute rock in, in my corner and she's, she's the, my best supporter. Oh, I love that. Oh my God, she, she'll also be the first one to point out my flaws, so she keeps me grounded.

[00:28:32] Nicole Donnelly: Same with my husband. He's the same. He's the exact opposite of me in every way.

[00:28:36] Nicole Donnelly: I'm like the dreamer. I'm the one that's always like, we can do this, that, and the other. And he's always like, well, did you think about this? And have you planned for this worst case scenario? And in the moment I'm like, oh, I don't wanna hear that right now. I want you. Be my cheerleader. But then after I sit and think about it, I like have just deep gratitude for it because he challenges me and like the, the older I get, the more I realize like I need [00:29:00] to be challenged.

[00:29:00] Nicole Donnelly: Like give me a challenge and that's where I'm gonna shine. So it that That's really cool that you've learned how to manage your shortcomings that way. For me, one of the things like with my shortcomings, like networking, it has always been this big scary thing for me. that may surprise you because I'm so extroverted.

[00:29:16] Nicole Donnelly: But it is like there's this fear that I have that, you know, just getting out there, this little social anxiety. And so I've actually found for myself, like if I find colleagues, partners who are really good on at that, I just like lean on them to just kind of, do it for me, if you will. And so, it does, it takes some of the pressure off, so.

[00:29:36] Nicole Donnelly: Very cool. Okay, so let's shift gears a little bit and talk about marketing. Cause you and I are both marketing marketers, you know, and I think this is such a hot topic right now for a lot of small businesses, as marketing's becoming more complex and as we're facing a, a recession right now, businesses are asking themselves how can.

[00:29:55] Nicole Donnelly: Promote my business. What do I do? Marketing's an investment. Right? So I'd love to learn [00:30:00] from you, how have you marketed your businesses in the past and what's worked and what hasn't? And let's start there. And then the next question would be like, what would your recommendation or advice be to any small businesses out there on how you'd market your business now, knowing what you 

[00:30:13] Brian Leung: know?

[00:30:15] Brian Leung: I think two things like the Gone are the days of, you know, I'll build a real, you know, I'm a, I'm an artisan, I'm a master at my craft. And the quality speaks for itself. No, the quality you. Actually no. Quality does speak for itself, but then you need to let people know about the quality. How are you gonna let people know like your product is quality.

[00:30:41] Brian Leung: Like you can't just go and throw things away throw things at people. Yeah. And for, in current climates, like to grow and maintain a business you can't often afford slow. , which you know, happens by that. You know, oh, the quality [00:31:00] speaks words itself. You need to kind of work yourself into the system that is set out for you.

[00:31:09] Brian Leung: And, and sort of that's out there. So in the past, right? Let's say before the internet what you would rely on is like, you know, get a good storefront, you know? . , that's the system that's set up for you. Good storefront you know, make sure you're listed in, in the phone books and different directories.

[00:31:29] Brian Leung: Make sure you know, you have the flyers out and whatnot. That's the, that's the system back then. Now the. , that that all still exists and it's great. You should rely on that, but a lot of it's now shifted onto the internet. Yes. And how do you leverage the systems in place on the internet to grow your business?

[00:31:51] Brian Leung: It becomes, you know, knowing how to appear on Google search, for example, make sure you, you know, take advantage of all the other directories. Right, [00:32:00] right. In the past, it's just the. You know, yellow Pages, for example. Yes. As the directory of businesses. Right? And if you're able to hack that and, and sort of appear, you know, a lot of businesses have like the triple A , right?

[00:32:12] Brian Leung: Because then Yes. And the phone book is alphabetical, right? If you're triple A, then you, you, yes. So true. So that's the first ins or an early instance of, you know, hacking or SEO op, you know, you can think of it as SEO, right? Yeah. Now the directory is completely different. You know, there, there's Google, which is basically a directory.

[00:32:32] Brian Leung: There's Google My Business, right? . the business, directories on maps, et cetera. And then there are other directories that aren't Google. So you, you can find it, find these out with quick searches so that all actually can be encompassed into the broad category of SEO. So s. A lot of people I ever tell everyone it's never too early and it's never too late to start SEO.

[00:32:55] Brian Leung: So if you haven't started, start today, . Oh, 

[00:32:58] Nicole Donnelly: that's such great advice cuz you're [00:33:00] absolutely right. SEO is always gonna be there. It's always gonna be important for any business to be thinking about and considering it's like the foundation. So that's really great advice. I love that. No, and I was just gonna say, you're doing such great work for clients with managing their presence on Google and, and doing that, and I think that's such a huge, huge thing that small businesses can take advantage of,

[00:33:20] Nicole Donnelly: you know, is just to get themselves out there on Google. So I love that too. That's that's awesome. 

[00:33:25] Brian Leung: Yeah. And so now going back to the analogy of the store, right? . , if you find a good location, right, then that's your organic listing, right? On Google. So that's SEO. You, you find a store that has a lot of foot traffic, a lot of visibility on a busy intersection, for example.

[00:33:43] Brian Leung: But let's say you can't, then what happens, right? Back then, what you might do is, you know, hire a sign flipper, for example, to stand on that busy corner , or, you know, buy that billboard, right? That's on that. , right? The . , digital equivalence of that is now running Google Ads. So if you can't [00:34:00] .

[00:34:00] Brian Leung: Or like. You're investing in SEO, but you're not appearing at the top on the research results page. Right. That's your, you know, that's the equivalence of not being able to buy that prime real estate that, you know. Yeah. Amazing storefront. Maybe you are tucked away in a different corner of the city, or, or, or on the town, or you're just around the corner, right.

[00:34:22] Brian Leung: Maybe less foot traffic, less visibility, but you can hack it by, Hiring a signed flipper right on that corner. And in Google you can create Google ads to, you know, hack it so that you're now appearing at the very top. Yeah. Right. So this, this analogy, I, I, I, I think any small business owner will understand.

[00:34:44] Brian Leung: And these two, I think are the main main ways that you can market your, your business nowadays. And it's the most access. Right. You can't often be like, oh, I'll redesign the website. Yeah. That's not feasible. [00:35:00] Yeah. But yeah, they're, those are sort of very tactical, very, you know, you can do this today.

[00:35:05] Brian Leung: And 

[00:35:05] Nicole Donnelly: very scrappy. Right. I love, I love what you say there too, because with Google Ads, , you're able to, so if you're a sign flipper on the a street corner, you're trying to capture people that may not even be thinking that they need what you're offering, right? So you might not even have a captive audience of people who are really intentful about what they're looking for, but with Google Ads, you're literally.

[00:35:26] Nicole Donnelly: Putting yourself in front of people who are searching for exactly what it is that you are offering to them. So it's so much more effective and targeted because you're bringing in those people that have said and raised their hands in the Google search saying, I need this. You know, rather than spending time trying to draw.

[00:35:43] Nicole Donnelly: And the other thing is, is that like that landscape of this traditional, like brick and mortar has shifted so much with . with the e-commerce and the way people are purchasing these days. You know, 70, what? It's, it's almost 80% of the purchasing process in b2b. This isn't even in B2C, is now happening [00:36:00] online before even talking to a sales rep.

[00:36:02] Nicole Donnelly: And so I think businesses have to be thinking about. , you know, how they can improve their online presence through Google Ads and through creating like a, what we call a digital self-serve experience through their website and content marketing, because it's, it's the only way that they're gonna be able to compete in this new way that people are buying and purchasing.

[00:36:20] Nicole Donnelly: And it also just opens up so much more. , there's just so much broader audience than that standard, traditional brick and mortar. Because online you can put yourself in front of people all over the country or what have you. So it really just opens up your market. You know, it's still important for you to really niche down, but it gets you in front of more of the right target buyers that you need and want.

[00:36:40] Nicole Donnelly: So that's really great advice. Awesome. All right. Oh man. So to close out our, this has been such a great conversation, Brian. I, I wanna thank you again for coming on and sharing your expertise. It's been wonderful. So, just to close us out, I'd love to just, you know, we all know that [00:37:00] entrepreneurs we're gonna make mistakes, but like, is there any special vitamin or like special like, advice you would give to entrepreneurs on like, how can you make those mistakes not catastrophic, right?

[00:37:12] Nicole Donnelly: Like what can you do to prevent like the really bad, terrible mistakes so that you're just like making smaller, more calculated mistakes or risks? What would you say there? 

[00:37:24] Brian Leung: I think, okay, there are a few things that one should understand. If you set up your business correctly, there shouldn't. A mistake so egregious that, you know, you would literally die.

[00:37:45] Brian Leung: Yeah, very few. Okay. There are some very few especially if you set up your business correctly. The, the main thing that's I think a lot of people are scared of is, is the idea of [00:38:00] losing everything they have. And for me and this goes back to. risk tolerance, understanding, risk. And that stems from my, you know, rock climbing like experiences is a lot of people, if you think about rock climbing, an accident can kill you.

[00:38:21] Brian Leung: That's true. But then an accident can kill you basically in everything you do in your life. So the, if you kind of rationalize the risk that way and focus on min, making sure you control the. , right? If the rope snaps, that's the same thing as your line, your brake line, um . breaking on your, in your car.

[00:38:43] Brian Leung: Right? There are, you know, percentages involved, but then it doesn't matter what that percentage is. If that happens, you die , right? Yeah. When you go and take a calculated risk, then you, you control what you can control and just let go of the things that you can't control. [00:39:00] . , having said that, the way I rationalize my risk is that, , I looked to my parents.

[00:39:07] Brian Leung: They came to Canada with a hundred American dollars in their pocket. Wow. They got ripped off with a cab ride into the city. Wow. Spending $20 and then this was like 20, 30 years ago. So it was a lot of money. 20, yeah. 20 American to get into the city. And then I, they spent another, like couple bucks to call relatives to make sure, you know, they get picked up correctly.

[00:39:32] Brian Leung: So they started with 80 American dollars and whatever they had in their suitcases, they were basically refugees. If they're able to get to where they are now with that little whatever I have right now, I, I speak the language. I have a great education. Yeah. I have experiences in, you know, in the business world here, whatever happens, I'm, I know that I can build from zero again, no problem.

[00:39:59] Brian Leung: [00:40:00] Right. So that. Frames everything for me in terms of the risk I'm willing to take. Even if everything goes to zero, I'm okay. Yeah. We'll just start from scratch. And again, kudos to my wife. She's with me. And that's because sh her, her experience growing up is very similar, right? So for people who are making ri taking risk, and, and sort of scared about you know, mistakes.

[00:40:32] Brian Leung: The situation is that they should frame the risk in a way that's, you know, they can still go out there, right? . and know what the best alternative is and if they're okay with that alternative, and then go ahead. 

[00:40:44] Nicole Donnelly: Hmm. I love that. And I love the example of your parents, like what tenacity and moxie they had, frankly.

[00:40:50] Nicole Donnelly: you know what an example to you. It's kind of like, if they can do it, I can do it. Right? That's how I feel with my own, like with my father, my grandfather. I look at their example and I say, man, if they could [00:41:00] grow a business and they could pick themselves up when they fall down, then I can do it too. So I love that.

[00:41:04] Nicole Donnelly: Like looking to the examples of the people around you to kind of help you stay grounded and help you realize that no matter what happens, you're gonna figure it out and it's all gonna be. and don't let that paralyze you from making a decision and making, taking that risk. So yeah. Well, very cool. Oh my gosh, Brian, it has been so wonderful to have you on the show today.

[00:41:24] Nicole Donnelly: I really appreciate all of your insights. Thank you so much for coming on. And where can people reach you if they wanna learn more about you? What you do? What, what, where, where, where can they find you? , 

[00:41:34] Brian Leung: I think I'm most active on Twitter, um . , but that might change in the near future. The best places to find me is on SwiftAds.io.

[00:41:46] Brian Leung: You can find my contact information there and you can definitely try out SwiftAds. It automates your advertising from creating it to monitoring and optimizing it. And if you're not ready for ads, we also have a free [00:42:00] directory listing which gives, you know, helps business owners boost their SEO.

[00:42:06] Brian Leung: And and it's sort of like a pr slash SEO role. I, I'm keeping that a bit under wraps. But then in their near future, there'll be a lot of, you know, I, I see a lot of people struggle with pr, so I'm building something that would help help them kind of be better with their pr. 

[00:42:24] Nicole Donnelly: I love it. I love how you're just really listening to customers in the market and what they're telling you.

[00:42:29] Nicole Donnelly: Well, that's awesome. Well, Brian, thank you so much again. So everyone out there, make sure you connect with Brian. He's just doing such great work for small businesses, helping them with their digital storefronts. Right. So thanks so much, Brian. Hope you have a great day. And that's it. That's all for now. 

[00:42:43] Brian Leung: All right.

[00:42:43] Brian Leung: Thanks for having me. 

[00:42:44] Julie Basello: Take care. Tales of Misadventure is produced, edited, and moderated by Julie Bello with Bello Media Music by Marcus. Special thanks to our amazing guests and the entire DMG digital team. Visit us@dmgdigital.io to get [00:43:00] access to all our podcast interviews and other helpful resources.

[00:43:03] Julie Basello: And if you'd like to get updates on the latest and greatest, please sign up for our email newsletter. We'll see you next time for another episode of Tales of Misadventure. Until then, keep falling forward.


People on this episode

Head Shot

Nicole Donnelly

Host